Victor Kossakovsky – The TMG Interview
Interview by Paul Preston
Victor Kossakovsky’s new documentary, Gunda, is unlike anything I’ve ever seen, and when you hear the concept, you’re going to be as curious as I was. The film, shot in black-and-white and featuring no dialogue or music, follows the lives of farm animals, particularly a pig (named Gunda) and her piglets, a group of chickens and a herd of cows. Kossakovsky’s gorgeous cinematography and his strict adherence to the possibilities that lay in the restrictions of his filmmaking style yield great reward. The film hypnotizes you as it depicts the mundane with great beauty and in turn offers up the shocking presented as everyday.
It’s clear that Kossakovsky has an agenda that we should live more harmoniously with nature, but Gunda benefits from that message being inherent in the simply presented lives of the other creatures among us, as opposed to being a film that knocks you over the head repeatedly with its message. Gunda opens in theaters this weekend (Friday, April 17th, specifically) and if you haven’t been out in the world since the pandemic started, the film is a nice re-introduction to nature…and a reminder we should stay respectful of it.
In Los Angeles, I’ve heard some lively audition stories. How exactly do you come across Gunda and decide she’s right for your movie? And what’s the process to set up a shoot to capture her life as a mother?
To be completely honest I would say that she made her choice first, then I realized that I am already in love with her and I have no chance to refuse her friendship. We were planning to make a research trip 4-6 months long but we met Gunda at the first farm we visited. We opened the door of the first barn there and Gunda just came to me immediately. She looked to me so friendly, kind of saying: Finally, he came to film us!!! Maybe she just felt that I’ve been a vegetarian all my life and the last few years a vegan, and I said to the producer Anita Rehoff Larsen: We found our Meryl Streep, we don’t need to search more!
The film is universal in its message, anyone could relate to it and that has a lot to do with the fact that it could be taking place anywhere. But with what looks like an international crew, in what country did you shoot?
Yes, we were trying to make it out of borders. Normally when you look at a movie about a dolphin for example, you do not focus on is this dolphin French or British, because it is not important. Important is what is special and unique about these creatures. Only humans like to present themselves as a representative of their countries. Therefore we made one Farm even though it was filmed in the farms of Norway, the UK and in the sanctuaries of the UK and Spain. My team is also very international – from Spain, Italy, Scotland, Norway, Russia, Syria, Poland.
I know you have to maintain a documentarian’s removed eye, but did you ever want to jump in and do something to improve any situations the animals were in? Or, knowing you didn’t want to do that, were there still moments when you wish you could have?!
Of course, such moments are happening in every film. But I have to stop myself and not change reality. My role is to film reality. This is my way to change reality for better. Of course, I wanted to stop the separation of Gunda from her kids, for example. What would happen next? Could I really help them? Do you think the owner of the farm would let them be with Gunda until end of their natural lives? Could I help the other billion piglets? Finally, the other day, we have got the numbers of 2020. So, last year we killed almost 1.5 billion pigs, over 360 million cows and 66 billion chickens. I hope that my film Gunda will help us to understand that each animal is not something but someone. Remember the situation on the Titanic. What role would you play there? Would you help women and children to take their seats in the dinghies? Would you jump to take your place first? Would you play cello or violin to raise people’s spirits? I probably would film until the last possible second.
The photography in this film is extraordinary. Long, moving shots that float just above the ground, circling the animal subjects. How did you accomplish that closeness while seemingly not disturbing the natural advancement of life on the farm?
Documentary fIlming is a love dance, no matter if you film humans or animals! Our duty is to feel the partner I am dancing with, even a chicken, to feel what she feels, to understand her emotions and to not make one rough step. Same as in a love dance. Egil Håskjold Larsen – who made all steadicam images – has an excellent sense of distance between his camera and a character he is filming. Egil has an extraordinary sense of empathy and respect to any animal he was filming! This is why it looks so amazing!
What led to the choice to shoot in black and white?
Three elements: first, we had unconscious idea that black & white images are timeless and real. They’re like from an archive and might be safe there forever. It was important for me to transmit the ageless feeling that this film was possibly made a hundred years ago or might be done a hundred years later. Second: In black and white you immediately see the eyes of the animals and see the personality of each of them. Third: it is my homage to the beginning of the cinema – when the most important thing was to show and not to tell, when an image was the crucial part of a film, more than its story, when sometimes even an image itself was a story, without any words.
And how did you pull off the audio design? In the above-mentioned shots circling the animals, those animals are in a mud pit! Yet, there’s no sloshing around of the cinematographer’s boots. More tricks like this are pulled off throughout the film, I imagine?
This is a very simple question! I am just privileged to work with the best sound man – Alexander Dudarev – who does everything himself – recording, editing, mixing-design! Please listen to his Atmos sound in our previous film Aquarela and you will see that he is the Mozart of cinema sound. The interesting fact is that in my first shooting day as a director, in September of 1986, Alexander was working with me and it was his first day as a sound recordist.
How did one of the film’s producers, Anita Rehoff Larsen, join the project? Did she help you devise the idea that there would be no dialogue, no voice over and no music? Or did you have to convince her that was a challenging-but-rewarding way to tell the story?
Anita Rehoff Larsen – is absolutely unusual producer in European film industry. In my view, she is more like an American producer – who is able to take a risk for the project even when there is not enough money in the budget, even with a filmmaker who has a totally crazy ideas. Her trust in the project was extraordinary. Actually, with Anita we were planning to make a documentary music comedy for kids. But for some reasons beyond our control it did not happen. Then, I proposed the animals film to her instead of kids music comedy and Anita was brave enough to make it! Then producer Joslyn Barnes from NY came to the project and helped me again, as she did before in Aquarela. I have to mention here that I was not able to find a producer for this project since 1997 when I first spoke about this idea at the Berlin Film festival.
Do you think the message of stopping the slaughter of farm animals gets squelched in America? Do we hear enough about it? And if you do believe the message has a hard time getting through, do you suspect certain forces at work to suppress it?
When industry came, many people were not happy at first and they thought that they would lose their job and that their life would be totally damaged. Then, they understood that there is no bad without good. Same story happened with the sexual revolution, technological revolution, digital revolution. Most of us do not like big changes. But we have to face it: time for the Empathy Revolution. This is Gunda time!
Joaquin Phoenix gave an extraordinary speech at The Oscars last year calling for humans to stop plundering the Earth. He seems to be on message with your film. How proud are you to have him aboard as an executive producer?
Joaquin Phoenix is extraordinary person, therefore he made that beautiful speech at The Oscars last year. I am absolutely thrilled with the incredible support that Joaquin gives to Gunda! It is crucially important that people around the world will see Gunda, especially families, especially kids!
What’s the ultimate benefit of living in harmony with the animals on Earth?
Infinity! If we will stop dominating, destroying and killing, if we will find our modest place on Earth along other living creatures around us, then we might live here endlessly without any necessity to immigrate to Mars or any other planet. If we won’t stop our destructive behavior then nature one way or another might push us away and then probably Earth will be happier without us. Have you been in the primary forest? How amazingly beautiful is it!!! Because there are no humans around there. So, my message is: Stop mistreating and killing animals! Learn to respect nature first before you wish to change it. Own less! Be modest!
Thank you, Victor. And I ask everyone I interview, what’s your favorite movie of all time?
It is not made yet! But I am sure it is coming soon! Because people, by filming their home videos with their phones, finally understood that there is a difference between reality and reality in the screen. Same process was with literature. At the beginning literature was only for rare educated people, then people started to write letters to each other and understood that word said and word written are very different. After this understanding came the great literature we know and love. The same process will happen with cinema. The first hundred years, only film professionals were trying to understand what the image is capable of. Now, everyone is able to see its power. The big cinema boom is coming very soon, if we will not destroy our planet before!
